Response to Joseph’s Father Contradiction Destroyed by Krazie316
This is a response to a video called ” Joseph’s Father Contradiction Destroyed by Krazie316. In his original video Krazie attempts to explain away the apparent contradiction between the lineages given for Jesus in Matthew chapter 1 and Luke chapter 3 (I reverse these in the video, my mistake!). He uses the tired old apologetic that claims that Matthew was tracing lineage based on Jewish inheritance law while Luke was actually tracing Mary’s ancestry, with the reference to Joseph really meaning Joseph’s wife.
There are so many flaws with this. First and foremost is that nowhere in the text does it say this or imply it. The only reason it is claimed is to explain away the contradiction. Furthermore, this convention of naming a woman’s lineage as her husband’s is not used anywhere else in the Bible, nor is there any extant or traditional Jewish convention for doing this (not counting the Apologist’s invention of such).
Another problem with these lists is that they directly contradict their source material in the OT, names are missing in some places and added in others. The purpose of this is that the Gospel writers were attempting to attach numerological significance to Jesus’ birth. Matthew 1:17 says: “So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations”. That is, some major theological event is purported to occur every 14 generations. To make this fit he deleted a few names to make Uzziah the son of Joram although 2 Chronicles clearly states that there were two generations between these two!
But the big flaw with these genealogies comes from the fact that if indeed Luke is tracing Mary’s lineage then he has her from the wrong tribe! Mary is related to Elisabeth, the mother of John the Baptist. Elisabeth and her husband are explicitly stated to be from the tribe of Levi. Therefore Mary (usually considered Elisabeth’s cousin, although interpretations vary) would also be from the tribe of Levi, not Benjamin as the apologist interpretation of Luke would have us believe.
I know that this will not even phase Krazie and other apologists. The typical response is to just hand wave these things away, usually with an insult to the person making the claim. I have found that if you keep pressing the issue the final argument is that we simply cannot understand because we are not saved.
Krazie’s video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlcbyVcDSFs
Duration : 0:9:46

April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Not only did antybu …
Not only did antybu use arguments that I already destroyed with Hypelibertarian, but his professor backed what I said when i said disprove what I said, lot you’re a joke just like you were when I destroyed you on my Christian video.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Would you like to …
Would you like to see Krazie316 get POWNED like the dumb he IS? Check out antybu86’s video entitled “Krazie in the Brain”.
watch?v=zIpgrk6VGXI
Watch this stupid bigot get his REAMED . . . just like his MOTHER did.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Do you REALLY …
Do you REALLY believe that some non manifesting entity places ideas in your head?
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Hi Krazie – It …
Hi Krazie – It would great if you could point me to some of these actual scholars who have supported this. I am not being facetious, I looked a bit and could not find any and would absolutely like to find out what real Biblical scholars have to say about it. I suppose it is unfair to judge it based only on what non-scholar apologists (like McDowell & Strobel) have written. Thanks in advance!
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Well, apparently …
Well, apparently neither Krazie nor CTH have any intelligent response to L-Man’s refutation of Krazie’s video.
Of course, what should one expect from people who live in denial- that they would suddenly say something rational?
They can twist and squirm and try to put whatever spin on it they want, but the Bible clearly says what it does, and it’s perfectly obvious to anyone who reads it that it’s full of errors and contradictions.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Actually no I …
Actually no I haven’t my video stands untouched via CTH’s refutation of this video.
Try again
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
The only thing …
The only thing you’ve “destroyed” is your credibility.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
It is not in the …
It is not in the Bible – it is Jewish tradition for the Levites. A friend of mine (who is doing his Rabbianical seminary work now) explained the significance of John the B as the child of pure Levites, how that would have been meaningful to Jews in that time as Levites had started intermarrying (again) after Exile. I attempted to find a source but could not, so take it or leave it. I will keep searching.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Perhaps that was a …
Perhaps that was a poor choice of words. I apologize. At any rate, I don’t see what the problem is. Your whole case is essentially that Elisabeth is a Levite and therefore Mary HAS TO BE a Levite, so I explained that this is not necessarily the case. I trust the Bible until proven wrong, which I have yet to see.
…and I’d appreciate a proof text in the Bible for that statement about pure-blood Levite women. Otherwise you’re doing exactly what you accuse of me.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
…. Now these …
…. Now these narrative may provide possible explanations, but they are still extra-Biblical. That is my issue with much of apologetics.
Post-exilic Levite men were permitted to marry outside of their tribes, not women. It was allowed but frowned upon. ‘Pure-blood’ Levites were looked as more righteous that those to were mixed. This is why if Elisabeth was a Levite, then Mary was also most likely such.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Um… Understand …
Um… Understand basic logic? I think you misspoke here, you may or may not agree with me, but the issue is not about my logic. Your refutation (which by the way, does not take into account why John B’s parents are described as they were, there is a very sound reason for that) does exactly what I was talking about – you have to spin a narrative to make it work. You have to suppose relationships and characters for which we know nothing. (cont’d)
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
It’s cool, man. I …
It’s cool, man. I make mistakes sometimes too. It happens.
I want you to know there are no hard feelings from me. I actually appreciate these challenges as it only serves to strengthen my faith in the Bible. I sincerely hope you will consider Christianity and I will be praying for you.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Thank you, brother. …
Thank you, brother. If you want to make a video response with that material, go for it. I’m pretty sure God put it in my head anyway, and He would want it spread. Feel free, of course, to add any other comments you’d like. 1 Corinthians 3:19 seems very applicable to the situation. I thought it was a simple solution if you know anybody with cousins that have a different surname.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
No, that’s not …
No, that’s not being nitpicky, I was in error and you are correct to point it out. I have no idea why I thought Benjamin.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
I’m on vacation …
I’m on vacation thousands of miles away from my webcam and software, CTH asked me if I was going to get him or could he, I asked if he could because m situation, the bottom like is CTH has successfully destroyed this video like every “so called” contradiction we destroy.
Just another day
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Excellent work, …
Excellent work, ChristianTruthHammer, even in my video I specifically clarified they don’t mention every single detail in some genealogies but when you go to the Old Testament it lists all the sons and such.
The bible also says somewhere don’t get caught up of ENDLESS GENEALOGIES, etc.
Great destruction of another so called “Contradiction”
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
My parents …
My parents collectively have 3 sisters, all of whom are married, 2 of whom have children. Those children are my cousins, but none of them have the same last name as me. Likewise, my maternal grandparents don’t have the same last name as me.
From this point, there are several specific possibilities that could fit the scenario, but I can’t be certain which one because the Bible is silent. We can be certain, however, that this is not necessarily a contradiction.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Women were only …
Women were only required to marry within their tribes when they had no brothers. Aaron had sons, which means if they were direct daughters, they had brothers and could marry into whatever tribe they wanted to. One could have married into Judah, which would make Elisabeth of Judah with no contradiction to the Bible.
Another possibility is that Elisabeth’s father was a Levite through the line of Aaron, which would make her a Levite, but not necessarily Mary, who is her cousin.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Much like modern …
Much like modern America, children in biblical Jewish families were considered part of the tribe of their father. Wives might have been, too, but I’m not entirely certain for this. It’s irrelevant to my point, though.
The King James Bible says Elisabeth is of the daughters of Aaron. The daughters could be either actual daughters or female descendants (Jesus was called the son of David). In any case, because they are female, it means their children are not necessarily Levites like Aaron.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
I can’t help it.
…
I can’t help it.
Now, the reason your argument doesn’t hold up is because it fails to take into account a few basic family tree rules that can be easily demonstrated by American families today. Numbers 1:18 says, “And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.”
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Ok, I’ve tried to …
Ok, I’ve tried to upload my response for several hours now and it’s not working, so I guess I’ll have to suck it up and post an essay in the comments here. This is going to take about 5 comments, so bear with me.
First, I want to point out that most of us fundies use only the King James. I do, and I know for a fact that Krazie does, so if you want to defeat us on our terms, go all the way with it.
Second, David was of the tribe of Judah, not Benjamin. That’s just me being nitpicky.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
About your initial …
About your initial comment on how most arguments in the debate on religion are not only old but REALLY old:
The philosophical debate on Christianity and the existence of it’s God is about 1000 years old now (not counting the Greeks). Every argument I have seen on youtube pro or con the existence of god was discussed in an introductory philosophy book from 1971 that I have.
(Including the silly “I says so in the Bible”-argument)
It would save us all much time if people would read books.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Sounds like …
Sounds like someones feeling crunchy already.
Still waiting for the grand response.
And for you to point out the futile error in the basic logic of the argument.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
It’s to bad for …
It’s to bad for those of you that think this kat dismantled my argument with the obvious logical error in this video as making several assertions.
You kat’s are going to feel rather crunchy when CTH makes his response, lol.
BTW you should research the argument I brought up and witness the several scholars (you know the ones with degrees stufying the bible) that have approved this study several times over.
April 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
It’s too bad for …
It’s too bad for all of you that are in agreement with this kat that you have all failed in that nothing in my video was ommited, furthermore there’s a futile error in the argument in that basic logic has been thrown out the door as ChristianTruthHammer has pointed out.
Ya’ll going to feel crunchy when his response is released, lol